Interview Jeugd en Co

Mathijs Zwinkels (29) woont en werkt in Culemborg waar hij in 2012 begon als jongerenwerker. In 2015 stapte hij over naar het sociale wijkteam en tegenwoordig is hij ketenregisseur. In 2015 richtte hij de Universiteit van de Straat op. Vanuit deze onderneming geeft hij workshops, trainingen en adviezen op het gebied van risicojeugd, straatcultuur, criminele groepen en aanverwante onderwerpen. Mathijs is getrouwd en verwacht dit najaar zijn eerste kind.

Universiteit van de Straat, is dat een erkende onderwijsinstelling?

“Nee, het verwijst naar de lessen die risicojongeren op straat opdoen. Zij leren daar dingen die ze meestal niet inzetten voor iets positiefs. Heel jammer, want het zijn kennis en vaardigheden die ze in een maatschappelijke carrière goed van pas kunnen komen. Zo hebben ze meestal een enorme sociale antenne en weten precies hoe ze met mensen moeten omgaan. Binnen de Universiteit van de Straat vertel ik hulpverleners en andere professionals op allerlei niveaus over risicojeugd en hoe je met deze groep moet dealen.

Hoe kwam je erbij om de Universiteit van de Straat op te richten?

“Ik werkte in 2012 in Culemborg als jongerenwerker met risicojeugd. Ze hingen rond in een wijk waar veel hoogopgeleiden wonen, die niet goed wisten hoe ze met hen moesten communiceren. Als ze bijvoorbeeld afval lieten slingeren, werd het meteen een conflict. Logisch, dacht ik. Deze mensen waren 70plus. Die waren het contact met jongeren behoorlijk kwijt. Daarom vertelde ik aan ouderen in de seniorenflat daar in de buurt over hoe je met hangjeugd praat. Dat werd enorm gewaardeerd. Daarna werd ik gevraagd door andere wijkbewoners; mensen met goede banen die ook geen idee hadden hoe ze moesten handelen. Ik gaf voorlichting aan deze groep, vervolgens overal in de stad en zelfs door heel Nederland. Op een gegeven moment vroeg iemand wat een lezing van me kostte. ‘Oké’, dacht ik toen. ‘Mensen willen hier kennelijk voor betalen. Dan moet ik er maar eens een professionele draai aan geven.’ Dat was het begin van de Universiteit van de Straat. Tegenwoordig geef ik trainingen en workshops aan professionals, regelmatig samen met andere organisaties. Daarnaast houd ik mij een aantal dagen per week als ketenregisseur onder meer bezig met risicojeugd. Ook daarin gebruik ik mijn kennis vanuit de Universiteit van de Straat.”

Wat is de belangrijkste les?

“Maak contact. Het is het mooiste als je kennismaakt in vredestijd, voordat er spanningen zijn. Dan gaat het makkelijker dan wanneer je meteen een negatieve boodschap moet brengen. Verzin gewoon een aanleiding. Begin over voetbal, maak een grap, klets over auto’s, iets wat in het nieuws was, wát dan ook. Het is belangrijk dat je transparant bent en vertelt wie je bent en wat je komt doen. Ik zeg altijd dat ik er ben voor de wijk en zoveel mogelijk mensen wil leren kennen. Ik kom ook altijd meteen met wisselgeld, waarbij ik vertel wat ik voor ze kan betekenen. Ik kan bijvoorbeeld een goed woordje doen bij een werkgever als iemand geen verklaring van goed gedrag kan overleggen. Ik kan helpen met formulieren invullen, een stageplek of leuke dingen voor ze regelen. Ervoor zorgen dat ze voetbaltrainer kunnen worden, bijvoorbeeld. Of dat een rapper iets kan opnemen in een studio. Als ik later wil dat iemand zijn problemen oplost, kan ik hem met zoiets motiveren.”

En als je nou wel over een probleem moet beginnen, wat doen?

“Dat doe ik nooit in een groep. Dan lijdt zo’n jongere voor zijn gevoel gezichtsverlies en dan kun je inpakken. Ik vertel bijvoorbeeld dat ik heb gehoord dat dingen niet zo lekker lopen en dat ik hem of haar graag even apart wil spreken. Ik zeg ook wel eens dat ik wat telefoonnummers nodig heb voor als ik mensen wil raadplegen over dingen in de wijk. Dat ze inspraak mogen hebben, daar zijn ze gevoelig voor. Ik zorg er dan natuurlijk wel voor dat ik het nummer van degene die ik wil spreken heb. Ik stuur dan een appje, waarin ik vertelde dat ik er in de groep niet over wilde beginnen, maar dat ik een afspraak wil. Face tot face, waarin ik begrip toon en aanbied samen over een oplossing na te denken. Ik leg het belang ook uit. Dat iemand bijvoorbeeld beter kan functioneren in de maatschappij als dat probleem de wereld uit is. Dit soort gesprekken kunnen nooit over de telefoon plaatsvinden. Ik wil zien wat er gebeurt. Ik wil iemand kunnen lezen.”

Waarom is dat zo essentieel?

“Bij mijn benadering maak ik gebruik van emoties. Ik manipuleer jongeren met wat zij mij laten zien. Als een jongen straalt als we het over zijn ouders hebben, weet ik dat ik hem daar op kan pakken. Ik vraag bijvoorbeeld of hij de zoon is die zijn ouders hebben gewild. Of ze trots op hem zijn. Ik zoek voortdurend naar wat iemand voelt en triggert. Vaak zijn dat life events; echtscheiding, ontslag, overlijden. Ik vraag bijvoorbeeld aan een jongen welke herinnering zijn opa aan hem had voordat hij stierf.”

Auw!

“Het is niet bedoeld om te kwetsen, maar om iemand in beweging te krijgen. Te triggeren. Die emoties benader ik heel rationeel, als middelen om een doel te bereiken. Het liefste heb ik een fijn gesprek waarin alles opgelost wordt, maar zo gaat het meestal niet. Je kunt tig fijne gesprekken hebben, maar als er niets verandert, heb je er niets aan. Met mijn aanpak ben ik dat voor.”

Pikken straatjongeren jouw gemanipuleer altijd?

“Meestal wel, soms niet. Laatst had ik een jongen die ik confronteerde met het feit dat zijn moeder heel hard werkt en hij totaal niet. Dat ze niet trots op hem kon zijn. Ik ken haar. Ze is een vrouw die veel vrijwilligerswerk doet en veel voor anderen betekent. Hij werd woest. Ik heb toen eerlijk toegegeven wat mijn aanpak is, dat ik hem wilde raken om hem te laten inzien hoe hij zich gedroeg. Transparantie, daar heb je het weer. Het had wat tijd nodig, maar ik ben hem blijven opzoeken waarin ik uitlegde waarom ik het had gezegd. Daardoor kwam het goed. Ik ben liever een klootzak dan dat ik de hele tijd de lieve vrede bewaar. Zo zou de hele hulpverlening moeten zijn.”

Waar schort het aan?

“De klassieke hulpverleningsmethodes die je op de opleiding meekrijgt, werken niet op straat. Die gaan namelijk uit van gespreksmodellen waarin je iemand een bepaalde inzicht probeert te laten krijgen. In de straatcultuur zijn jongeren hiervoor niet gemotiveerd. Zoals ze in Rotterdam zeggen: ‘Je moet niet lopuh te lullen, maar lopuh te doen’.”

Waarom weet jij zo goed wat ze nodig hebben?

“Ik kom uit een rauwe cultuur. Uit een gezin met veel geweld, waartegen ik geen verweer had. Dus ging ik de straat op. Vanaf mijn twaalfde was ik voornamelijk buiten. Ik was hartstikke onzeker en beïnvloedbaar, waardoor ik in foute netwerken terecht kwam. Ik heb dingen gedaan waarvoor ik een flinke straf had kunnen krijgen. Ik heb aan den lijve ondervonden hoe hard het was en hoe moeilijk om eruit te komen. Die ervaring wil ik delen.”

Wat hielp jou destijds?

“Ik kwam mensen tegen die in mij geloofden en me leerden dat je respect en waardering niet uit geld haalt. Docenten van school bijvoorbeeld en een goede hulpverlener. Zij begrepen mij, mijn leefwereld en snapten hoe het werkte op straat. Zij zagen dat ik gedreven was, een jongen met potentie. Ik deed bijvoorbeeld nooit huiswerk, maar voerde wel het woord in discussies. Zij spraken hun geloof in mij uit en onderbouwden waarom. Daarmee wisten ze mij te raken en in beweging te krijgen. Door het leven op straat kon ik ruiken wie authentiek was en wie een ingestudeerd praatje had. Ik was gevoelig voor mensen die een streep achter hun naam hadden, die wat betekenden. Deze mensen straalden uit dat ze kennis van zaken hadden en daar was ik gevoelig voor. Ik zie dat nu ook bij straatjongeren. Zij kijken bijvoorbeeld op tegen Erdogan en Badr Hari, omdat deze mannen charisma uitstralen.”

Jouw aanpak kost veel tijd. Hebben hulpverleners die wel?

“Het is de vraag of het zoveel tijd kost. Ik ken genoeg casussen van jongeren die van de ene instelling naar de andere gaan. Dan kun je beter vooraf veel moeite investeren met een aanpak die hout snijdt.”

En als het allemaal niet lukt, hoe lang blijf je dan proberen?

“Je mag pas afschalen als er aanleiding toe is. Als het een brug te ver is omdat iemand verward, ernstig verslaafd of een gevaar voor anderen is, bijvoorbeeld. Als je uitrusting onvoldoende is, moet je andere partijen in stelling brengen. Je doet de deur pas dicht, als je zeker weet dat anderen het op een goede manier overnemen.”
Tekst: Deborah Ligtenberg

 

180 reacties

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    “There has been lighthearted talk and jokes made about a stalker in the past,” the officer noted. “All the girls were slightly nervous about it being a fact, though.”

    But after years of investigating the murders, detectives told CNN they were never able to establish a connection between Kohberger and any of the victims, or a motive.

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  156. The trial of Bryan Kohberger – the man who brutally murdered four University of Idaho students inside their off-campus home – ended in July before it ever truly began when he accepted a plea deal that saw him sentenced to four consecutive life terms in prison without the possibility of an appeal or parole.

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    And when he was finally given the opportunity to answer their questions, he said, “I respectfully decline.”

    That decision further fueled the mystery around his motive for murdering Xana Kernodle, Madison Mogen, Ethan Chapin and Kaylee Goncalves.

    “There’s no reason for these crimes that could approach anything resembling rationality,” Idaho District Judge Steven Hippler said during Kohberger’s sentencing. “The more we try to extract a reason, the more power and control we give to him.”

    But, he added, investigators and researchers may wish to study his actions – if only to learn how to prevent similar crimes from occurring in the future.
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    Indeed, academics and former FBI profilers told CNN the challenge of unravelling the criminal mind of a man like Bryan Kohberger is enticing. And while his trial may be over, in many ways, the story of what can be learned from his crimes may have only just begun.

    “We want to squeeze any silver lining that we can out of these tragedies,” said Molly Amman, a retired profiler who spent years leading the FBI’s Behavioral Threat Assessment Center.

    “The silver lining is anything we can use to prevent another crime. It starts with learning absolutely, positively everything about the person and the crime that we possibly can.”

    CNN
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    Even seasoned police officers who arrived at 1122 King Road on November 13, 2022, struggled to process the brutality of the crime scene.

    All four victims had been ruthlessly stabbed to death before the attacker vanished through the kitchen’s sliding glass door and into the night.

    “The female lying on the left half of the bed … was unrecognizable,” one officer would later write of the attack that killed Kaylee Goncalves. “I was unable to comprehend exactly what I was looking at while trying to discern the nature of the injuries.”

    Initial interviews with the two surviving housemates gave investigators a loose timeline and a general description of the killer – an athletic, White male who wore a mask that covered most of his face – but little else.

    Police later found a Ka-Bar knife sheath next to Madison’s body that would prove to be critical in capturing her killer.

    One of the surviving housemates told police about a month before the attacks, Kaylee saw “a dark figure staring at her from the tree line when she took her dog Murphy out to pee.”

    “There has been lighthearted talk and jokes made about a stalker in the past,” the officer noted. “All the girls were slightly nervous about it being a fact, though.”

    But after years of investigating the murders, detectives told CNN they were never able to establish a connection between Kohberger and any of the victims, or a motive.

    Kohberger is far from the first killer to deny families and survivors the catharsis that comes with confessing, in detail, to his crimes. But that, former FBI profilers tell CNN, is part of what makes the prospect of studying him infuriating and intriguing.

  157. The trial of Bryan Kohberger – the man who brutally murdered four University of Idaho students inside their off-campus home – ended in July before it ever truly began when he accepted a plea deal that saw him sentenced to four consecutive life terms in prison without the possibility of an appeal or parole.

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    And when he was finally given the opportunity to answer their questions, he said, “I respectfully decline.”

    That decision further fueled the mystery around his motive for murdering Xana Kernodle, Madison Mogen, Ethan Chapin and Kaylee Goncalves.

    “There’s no reason for these crimes that could approach anything resembling rationality,” Idaho District Judge Steven Hippler said during Kohberger’s sentencing. “The more we try to extract a reason, the more power and control we give to him.”

    But, he added, investigators and researchers may wish to study his actions – if only to learn how to prevent similar crimes from occurring in the future.
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    Indeed, academics and former FBI profilers told CNN the challenge of unravelling the criminal mind of a man like Bryan Kohberger is enticing. And while his trial may be over, in many ways, the story of what can be learned from his crimes may have only just begun.

    “We want to squeeze any silver lining that we can out of these tragedies,” said Molly Amman, a retired profiler who spent years leading the FBI’s Behavioral Threat Assessment Center.

    “The silver lining is anything we can use to prevent another crime. It starts with learning absolutely, positively everything about the person and the crime that we possibly can.”

    CNN
    Only Kohberger knows
    Even seasoned police officers who arrived at 1122 King Road on November 13, 2022, struggled to process the brutality of the crime scene.

    All four victims had been ruthlessly stabbed to death before the attacker vanished through the kitchen’s sliding glass door and into the night.

    “The female lying on the left half of the bed … was unrecognizable,” one officer would later write of the attack that killed Kaylee Goncalves. “I was unable to comprehend exactly what I was looking at while trying to discern the nature of the injuries.”

    Initial interviews with the two surviving housemates gave investigators a loose timeline and a general description of the killer – an athletic, White male who wore a mask that covered most of his face – but little else.

    Police later found a Ka-Bar knife sheath next to Madison’s body that would prove to be critical in capturing her killer.

    One of the surviving housemates told police about a month before the attacks, Kaylee saw “a dark figure staring at her from the tree line when she took her dog Murphy out to pee.”

    “There has been lighthearted talk and jokes made about a stalker in the past,” the officer noted. “All the girls were slightly nervous about it being a fact, though.”

    But after years of investigating the murders, detectives told CNN they were never able to establish a connection between Kohberger and any of the victims, or a motive.

    Kohberger is far from the first killer to deny families and survivors the catharsis that comes with confessing, in detail, to his crimes. But that, former FBI profilers tell CNN, is part of what makes the prospect of studying him infuriating and intriguing.

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    And when he was finally given the opportunity to answer their questions, he said, “I respectfully decline.”

    That decision further fueled the mystery around his motive for murdering Xana Kernodle, Madison Mogen, Ethan Chapin and Kaylee Goncalves.

    “There’s no reason for these crimes that could approach anything resembling rationality,” Idaho District Judge Steven Hippler said during Kohberger’s sentencing. “The more we try to extract a reason, the more power and control we give to him.”

    But, he added, investigators and researchers may wish to study his actions – if only to learn how to prevent similar crimes from occurring in the future.
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    Indeed, academics and former FBI profilers told CNN the challenge of unravelling the criminal mind of a man like Bryan Kohberger is enticing. And while his trial may be over, in many ways, the story of what can be learned from his crimes may have only just begun.

    “We want to squeeze any silver lining that we can out of these tragedies,” said Molly Amman, a retired profiler who spent years leading the FBI’s Behavioral Threat Assessment Center.

    “The silver lining is anything we can use to prevent another crime. It starts with learning absolutely, positively everything about the person and the crime that we possibly can.”

    CNN
    Only Kohberger knows
    Even seasoned police officers who arrived at 1122 King Road on November 13, 2022, struggled to process the brutality of the crime scene.

    All four victims had been ruthlessly stabbed to death before the attacker vanished through the kitchen’s sliding glass door and into the night.

    “The female lying on the left half of the bed … was unrecognizable,” one officer would later write of the attack that killed Kaylee Goncalves. “I was unable to comprehend exactly what I was looking at while trying to discern the nature of the injuries.”

    Initial interviews with the two surviving housemates gave investigators a loose timeline and a general description of the killer – an athletic, White male who wore a mask that covered most of his face – but little else.

    Police later found a Ka-Bar knife sheath next to Madison’s body that would prove to be critical in capturing her killer.

    One of the surviving housemates told police about a month before the attacks, Kaylee saw “a dark figure staring at her from the tree line when she took her dog Murphy out to pee.”

    “There has been lighthearted talk and jokes made about a stalker in the past,” the officer noted. “All the girls were slightly nervous about it being a fact, though.”

    But after years of investigating the murders, detectives told CNN they were never able to establish a connection between Kohberger and any of the victims, or a motive.

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